ENT GAME Bioshock bois: why is Abby the best character in gaming?

silkforcalde

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
18,861
I think the end of the first game is a lot more nuanced and complicated than that, morally.

Like sure, you could argue about the greater good and all that. But Ellie wasn't even being given a choice or even being told what was going to happen to her. There's no moral high ground to be had here.

he massacred an entire group of people that were only trying to help and doomed the human race, there is no nuance, he is the true villain of the story. pure evil blinded by a false sense of parental emotions.
 

preston

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2006
45,934
Miami / Atlanta
he massacred an entire group of people that were only trying to help and doomed the human race, there is no nuance, he is the true villain of the story. pure evil blinded by a false sense of parental emotions.

Plenty of nuance imo. Every unknown survivor in that world is of questionable morality and history. Chances are plenty of those fireflies were just like Joel in the years following the outbreak (ie doing terrible things to others in order to survive)

It’s also fair to suggest plenty of the fireflies are still suspect. Sure, the pursuit is noble at face value, but who’s to say how that group even plans on employing it, and to what extent they plan on leveraging power to do so.

Also, Joel’s daughter was shot to death in his arms at the onset of the outbreak, which obviously turned his heart to stone, and likely made it easier for him to spend two decades doing terrible things. Eventually this “survivor” met Ellie, and over the course of their journey she peeled back his armor and he found a surrogate daughter to love again. In that bleak existence i don’t see how you can classify that as a “false sense of parental emotions”. I can’t blame him for a second for making the choice he did, no matter how selfish I might perceive it to be.

It’s funny, Era had a survey on peoples impressions of Joel a couple years ago, and to such an absurd percentage, people who found Joel purely villainous were players under the age of 20, and people who found his actions warranted were people over the age of 30. I think that 20-30 range was more split.
 

Niccolo-daddy

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2004
197,923
since it was brought up the other day, lol about time:


Kinda funny that it's a dece game too.
That's a new avenue to shit post on steam or at least one that hasn't been exploited. It kinda has been going for a bit with Domina too. Curious if they'll do anything about changelog or add limits.
 

silkforcalde

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
18,861
Plenty of nuance imo. Every unknown survivor in that world is of questionable morality and history. Chances are plenty of those fireflies were just like Joel in the years following the outbreak (ie doing terrible things to others in order to survive)

It’s also fair to suggest plenty of the fireflies are still suspect. Sure, the pursuit is noble at face value, but who’s to say how that group even plans on employing it, and to what extent they plan on leveraging power to do so.

Also, Joel’s daughter was shot to death in his arms at the onset of the outbreak, which obviously turned his heart to stone, and likely made it easier for him to spend two decades doing terrible things. Eventually this “survivor” met Ellie, and over the course of their journey she peeled back his armor and he found a surrogate daughter to love again. In that bleak existence i don’t see how you can classify that as a “false sense of parental emotions”. I can’t blame him for a second for making the choice he did, no matter how selfish I might perceive it to be.

It’s funny, Era had a survey on peoples impressions of Joel a couple years ago, and to such an absurd percentage, people who found Joel purely villainous were players under the age of 20, and people who found his actions warranted were people over the age of 30. I think that 20-30 range was more split.

i don't see how you could play through the ending of the last of us and not realize you were playing a monster at the end. like they clearly made you out to be a bad person doing very bad things.

looks like the kids had better heads on their shoulders in that poll
 

preston

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2006
45,934
Miami / Atlanta
i don't see how you could play through the ending of the last of us and not realize you were playing a monster at the end. like they clearly made you out to be a bad person doing very bad things.

looks like the kids had better heads on their shoulders in that poll

To me it’s much more layered than “Joel is a monster” - Druckmann and Baker have both said the same.

Joel has done monstrous things, and maybe you can argue that the act at the end itself is one of them - but it’s also immediately understandable

I mean this argument in its essence is one of the reasons it’s widely considered one of the best gaming stories ever

There have been thousands of discussions about this topic, over the years - hardline, vehement opinions from both perspectives

Will be interesting to see how the show handles it and how it’s received - I’m going to bet the wider audience will be in favor with him saving Ellie, and not sacrificing her
 
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silkforcalde

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
18,861
To me it’s much more layered than “Joel is a monster” - Druckmann and Baker have both said the same.

Joel has done monstrous things, and maybe you can argue that the act at the end itself is one of them - but it’s also immediately understandable

I mean this argument in its essence is one of the reasons it’s widely considered one of the best gaming stories ever

There have been thousands of discussions about this topic, over the years - hardline, vehement opinions from both perspectives

Will be interesting to see how the show handles it and how it’s received - I’m going to bet the wider audience will be in favor with him saving Ellie, and not sacrificing her

the events of 2 show that it would've been a net positive for humanity if joel had let ellie die at the end of 1, not only were his actions a callously delivered doom for humanity made by massacring people fleeing in terror, they in turn led to mass death and suffering, and it's not like ellie existing is a good thing for just about anyone around her
 

Highlander_77

Madre de Dios! Es el Pollo Diablo!!!
Dec 7, 2000
85,353
New England
Plenty of nuance imo. Every unknown survivor in that world is of questionable morality and history. Chances are plenty of those fireflies were just like Joel in the years following the outbreak (ie doing terrible things to others in order to survive)

It’s also fair to suggest plenty of the fireflies are still suspect. Sure, the pursuit is noble at face value, but who’s to say how that group even plans on employing it, and to what extent they plan on leveraging power to do so.

Also, Joel’s daughter was shot to death in his arms at the onset of the outbreak, which obviously turned his heart to stone, and likely made it easier for him to spend two decades doing terrible things. Eventually this “survivor” met Ellie, and over the course of their journey she peeled back his armor and he found a surrogate daughter to love again. In that bleak existence i don’t see how you can classify that as a “false sense of parental emotions”. I can’t blame him for a second for making the choice he did, no matter how selfish I might perceive it to be.

It’s funny, Era had a survey on peoples impressions of Joel a couple years ago, and to such an absurd percentage, people who found Joel purely villainous were players under the age of 20, and people who found his actions warranted were people over the age of 30. I think that 20-30 range was more split.


I'm willing to bet that breakdown of responses had a LOT to do with whether the people responding had kids themselves or not.

Maybe I'm missing some nuance having only read the ending and not actually played it, but it sounds to me like there wasn't a whole lot of assurances that the Fireflies attempt to create a vaccine was even going to be successful, they didn't seem to be too interested in taking any time to do additional research and try to find a different method, and they took someone who was already unconscious and were going to kill her without even giving her a choice. Then let's say it didn't work? They've just killed the one person who is immune to the infection and lost all future opportunities to study her.

This doesn't sound like a group of people who I would 100% trust the motivations of.
 
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Highlander_77

Madre de Dios! Es el Pollo Diablo!!!
Dec 7, 2000
85,353
New England
Having said all that...

From Abby's perspective, I absolutely understand why she would want to kill Joel and would feel justified in doing so.
 
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Keksim

OT Supporter
Jan 16, 2012
7,403
I was sort of on Joel's side because of all the audio logs and notes that showed how big of a gamble the surgery could be

Also the Fireflies were shady af in how they were approaching it
 

Highlander_77

Madre de Dios! Es el Pollo Diablo!!!
Dec 7, 2000
85,353
New England
Three pages of arguing over a game you haven't even played :ugh:


Played and finished TLOU2. Played but didn't finish the original. The story grabbed me but the gameplay annoyed me, with all the mandatory stealth sections and 1-hit deaths. Maybe that gets better further into the game, but I made two attempts and ended up getting sidetracked and never going back both times. :o
 

Matren

Don't worry about me, jerkoff.
Oct 4, 2001
146,361
New Albany, IN
Played bioshock infinite because of this thread and it's a fun game. Didn't touch it for a few months and now when I try and start a game it just crashes to desktop. Tried the compatibility settings and a bunch of reddit recommendations, still crashes. Anybody have this problem?


Im guessing its because of this? Dumbfuck 2k sticking their shitass launcher in games that are 10 fucking years old that no one asked for or needed
 
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silkforcalde

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
18,861
i was never able to play the minerva's den dlc for bioshock 2 because it would just randomly crash to desktop all the time
 

silkforcalde

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
18,861
going to play this game



only 10 bucks and it has a lot of good word of mouth on the metroidvania subreddit and i'm intrigued at why the positive reviews have 50+ hours in the game
 
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