Cart versus Formula 1 -- wheels ?

Discussion in 'OT Driven' started by The Bastard, Jul 15, 2001.

  1. The Bastard

    The Bastard Guest

    I'm still learning about the two sports but there are differences between the two that I can't figure out.

    Why do Cart use slicks and F1 doesn't ? Wouldn't F1 be much more effective if they used slicks as well ?

    And does it seem like F1 races in more exotic places ?

  2. CFster

    CFster Guest

    F1 - Long post

    The FIA (the sanctioning body that controls F1) has mandated that they should run grooved tires. This was in an effort to slow the cars down. A few years ago they ran slicks which were actually quite a bit wider than the tires they have now. The wheels were also wider apart offering greater stability. Ironically, as with everything else in F1, the engineers have tweaked the cars to the point where they have regained the speed they initially lost when they switched to the smaller, grooved tires. Could you imagine how fast they would be now if they stayed with the slicks? Actually, both CART and F1 instigate rules changes every year in an effort to slow the cars down. Things like reducing wing size to reduce downforce and turbo boost pressure (CART) to lower horsepower. The CART cars still go 240mph at Fontana so I think this is a good thing (any faster and people would be dying left and right).
    As for location, CART got its start at Indianapolis and grew from there (then they had the CART/IRL split but that's another story). Only in the last couple of years have they started expanding to international venues. The F1 series on the other hand was always an international series that started in Europe (Britain and Italy at first). This is the way it has been for 50 years.
    Now, this part is a little hazy but bear with me. From what I understand, CART has always answered to the FIA. They had some kind of agreement that they couldn't race on road courses outside of the States. FIA wanted the F1 series to remain the premiere open wheel road course series in the world. I'm not sure how the FIA enforced this (it may have to do with the sponsors and major corporations involved) but it has stood to this day. The only dates CART has outside the US are on temporary street circuits such as Surfur's Paradise Australia, Toronto, Vancouver and two new oval tracks in England and Germany this year. However, from what I hear CART is supposed to race on the F1 circuit in Montreal next year, so I think the FIA is relaxing their rules a little.
    One might imagine CART cars racing on the great F1 tracks (Spa, Monaco, Silverstone, Magny Cours France - and even the new road course at Indy) but the truth is these circuits are designed with F1 cars in mind. This meaning that things like the run-off areas are too short for a CART car ( an F1 car stops in half the distance a CART car can), and a lot of the tracks simply don't have enough garages or pit stalls to handle the greater number of CART entries. There are other reasons as well.
    Also, the budget in CART is nowhere near what F1 is - meaning that to travel from country to country is hideously expensive for a two car team.
  3. The Bastard

    The Bastard Guest

    Wow, you've truly opened my eyes like no website can :big grin:

    I have always wondered why the two sport didn't intertwined and only til recently (watching a David Courthard tour the Mclaren factory) did I learn that F1 cars stop in miraculously short distances which is why most people say F1 is more exciting, just one of the myriad reasons why really.. but that's another story. :)

    To me it has always been a mystery why Cart didn't race on the same track but if what you've said about Montreal is true then atleast that will answer some questions for the laymens of the sport.

    I saw on the news that Paul Tracey said he reached 250mph ? drafting and it scared the $^%# out of him !! I wonder if the NA V10's of the F1's can do the same..I"m sure they can.


    So here are some more questions:

    1. With Sponsorships being so rich in F1 why don't they have more control on the cars in terms of being competitive. i.e Some teams (Mindari) are less competitive than say Ferrari or even BAR or Jordan. This perplexes me and I wonder how a league can be that deems themselves top of motorsport can let such a glaring issue pass..

    2. Isn't CART controlled, for the most part by the owners ? Penske, Frosythe, Newman, Letterman :big grin: ?? They must have a governing body as well.. hmmm.

    3. Why doesn't F1 race on ovals ? when CART does.. I know speed is a concern and not much skill is required, but ti's fun -- ok, don't answer this one :)

    4. How much HP for each ? I'm told that the CART's V8 Turbo charged pumps out like 800bhp ? What about F1's ??

  4. CFster

    CFster Guest

    It's all about the carbon fiber brakes (rotors and pads) - hideously expensive. The CART cars are only allowed to run them on the big ovals like Michagan, Fontana and when they used to run at Indy.

    Back in '94 the Penskes came to Indy with a big motor (basically a loophole in the rules that said you could run more cubic inches if it was based on a stock block design vs. the true bred race engines they always use. They made something like 1000hp - nobody really knows). I was there - they sounded awesome. Tony George quickly put an end to that and changed the rules for next year after they won of course. The problem was they weren't that reliable. Anyway, they were doing 250mph down the straights WITHOUT a draft - crazy.

    In answer to your questions:

    1. F1 is a battle of the automakers - no doubt among the top teams anyway. Teams like McLaren (Mercedes), Williams (BMW) and Ferrari all have the most technically advanced engines that their corporate suppliers can produce. Engine development can run into the 100's of millions of dollars. It means very much to them to have that Mercedes or BMW logo float around the track for 2 hours every other Sun morning. Do you know how many countries that's broadcast in? The problem is that it's all about the money and that's why it's so uneven. Teams like Prost, Minardi and Benneton are using engines they developed in house or are second year designs from other teams. Uncompetitive in a series where the top team literally come with a new engine EVERY week to race. They can't keep up simply. For example: I think it was two years ago in Montreal - Ferrari was unhappy with their engines on Friday. A call was made to the factory in Italy "we need new engine built to these specifications. They MAKE the engines and ship them over on the Concorde early Sat morning. The engines are installed and they put a car on the pole in qualifying. There are only a few teams with the dough to accomplish this.
    There are other reasons why F1 costs so much - transportation, outrageous fees paid to Bernie Ecclestone etc. (that's another story).

    2. Yes CART has a board of directors which consists of the team owners. There is also a CEO which is elected from outside (except when they had Bobby Rahal running it for a few months).

    3. F1 cars aren't designed for ovals. They don't have the crash protection or the undertrays which generate downforce. Their engines aren't designed to be run wide open for an extended period of time such as you would find on a big oval. Also, they don't consider oval racing REAL racing. However, probably the best race I ever saw was a CART race up at Louden, NH involving Paul Tracy and Nigel Mansell on the oval. The best last ten laps I've ever seen. Despite what the F1 crowd thinks, I believe CART has a good combination of road courses, street circuits, small and large ovals. Makes it more interesting.

    4. The BMW F1 engines are said to produce 875hp. Supposedly the most powerfull in the series. The Ferraris were supposed to get a boost this weekend and use their qualifying engines during the race (said to produce somewhere aroung 850hp). But who really knows? CART cars put out somewhere between 900hp and 950hp depending on qualifying or race engines.
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Also CART engines are 2.6liter while in F1 they are 3.0L, and the redline in F1 cars is 18000 RPM thats incredible, i dont know what the redline for CART is but its real high too, and about the difference in teams in F1, McLaren before the 2001 season they spen 6000 hours in their own wind tunnels while Minardi spent 150 hours in a rented wind tunnel, oh and i have a question what team is going to be replaced by the Toyota team in the next years in F1?
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I thought toyota runs cart?
  7. CFster

    CFster Guest

    My guess is the team to go is Prost. They're having major financial difficulties right now.

    And yes, Toyota does run in CART. However last year they made the announcement that they wanted to participate in F1 as a factory team also. They've been in development since. The only other factory team in F1 is Ferrari.

    BTW, look for the Toyota to suck rocks for at least the first two years. So far the car has been way off the pace - and F1 is just too competitive.
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Although ovals may SEEM boring, try going around a turn in your car at 150mph (OK even 100mph is scary in a passenger car) and you'll understand they're not so fool-proof. These guys are riding the razor's edge for 500 miles, not something done in F1 with it's long straights and sometimes super-slow hairpins. F1 is still my favorite form of racing, but CART ovals ain't so bad oncw you know what the eff you're looking at. :)
  9. Isnt Jaguar a factory team? or am i pulling shit outa my buns hole?
  10. CFster

    CFster Guest

    Yes, if you count Ford as the factory. Ford owns Jag and their engines are made by Cosworth Engineering (also owned and called Ford).

    The only other true "factory" team in F1 is Ferrari - well, until Toyota joins next year.
  11. Guido The Penguin

    Guido The Penguin Hi, I'm here for the gang bang.

    Oct 7, 2001
    Likes Received:
    p'cola, FL
    Its gonna be interesting to see if Toyota blows their F-1 program like they did their Le Mans program.

    Just proves you can throw the most money at winning something, and still not do it.

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