GUN opinion on these guns.

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by silversilvia, Jun 20, 2007.

  1. silversilvia

    silversilvia Active Member

    Sep 28, 2003
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    well I need a sub gun in 9mm.

    Looking at the CX4 (will be nice since i have 2 92's and the 30 round mags and normal high caps will be exchangable),

    Keltec sub-2000 (cheaper?)

    AR upper in 9mm (i hear you have to change out the LPK for 9mm?)

    I really got into the futuristic rifles so the CX4 is on top of my list and maybe one day i can afford a FS2000.
  2. krott5333

    krott5333 Guest

    hi point
  3. silversilvia

    silversilvia Active Member

    Sep 28, 2003
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    i use to have one (first hand gun) so i am no hater. But i am in the position in life that i can afford much better things now. so no hi point
  4. TL1000RSquid

    TL1000RSquid ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Jun 9, 2004
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    5.56 LPK will work fine as long as its a regular trigger, match wont work.
  5. thomor25

    thomor25 I make money online....

    Jun 11, 2000
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    Denver Colorado
    I'd go with a 9mm upper.

    Here is some info I've found useful.

    Q: "What is the cheapest, easiest way I can get into a 9mm system with my current 5.56mm AR?"

    A: There are two "cheap and easy" ways to get into a 9mm AR setup, both which will cost around $600 or so:

    Olympic Arms 9mm upper. It comes with a modified Sten magazine that has a block welded to the back and works with the standard magazine catch, allowing you to simply slap on the upper, stick the mag in the magwell and rock and roll. However, this style of magazine is expensive ($60) and won't fit in a standard 9mm mag pouch. Most people get a SOCOM Manufacturing magazine bolc, which is held in by the standard magazine catch and works kind of like an AK or HK paddel catch. It allows you to use standard, unmodified Sten mags. Here is the price breakdown:

    Olympic Arms 9mm upper: $550 (from Atlantic Firearms or Triple Break Products)
    SOCOM Mfg mag block: $70 shipped (from SOCOM Manufacturing)
    Sten mags (32 round cap) $3.99 each from TAPCO
    Total cost with 5 mags: $640
    *note: Upper comes with one modified Sten mag- you can probably sell it and get $50 for it on the EE if you have no need for it

    Colt/Rock River arms 9mm upper
    The other directioni to go is the "Colt Style" system. I say this in parenthesis as most people actually buy a Rock River Arms upper, as they are half the price of colt and are exaclty the same. I personally have one of these and they work great. The cheapest way to go with these is Rock River Arms 9mm upper, a VM Hyetch magazine block, and Uzi mags. The VM Hytech block is cool as it is inserted up into the magwell and held by the standard mag catch, and ha its own mag catch that works with the standard Uzi magazine. Here is the price breakdown:

    RRA 9mm upper (A4): $377 (From ADCO Firearms or Hallmark Enterprises)
    VM Hytech mag block: $130 (From Ameetec Arms or Brownells with C&R discount)
    Uzi mags (25 round) $13 (From Century Arms and many other places)
    Total cost with 5 mags: $572
    *Note- make sure to get "IMI" magazines as they are most reliable.

    Other thoughts:
    Although the Rock River Arms setup appears to be slightly cheaper, you can easily recoup some money by selling the modified Sten mag that comes with the Olympic Arms upper. If you are using the SOCOM block there is really no need for it.

    Also, about 25-30% of the time the Rock River Arms setup requires a little "Tweaking" to get it running properly. the most common problem is that it will not strip the last 1-4 rounds out of the Uzi mag, the reason being that the Uzi follower has too steep and angle for the bolt to strip the rounds. This is easy to fix with about two minutes a mag and a pair of pliers (just did it myself) and the mags will still work in an Uzi, but some people don't like having to "tweak" their weapon to get it to run. Also, you might have to get another hammer- the DMPS style AR15 hammer (looks basically like an M16 hammer with the back "rat tail" choped off) works for both .223 and 9mm. Many AR-15's are equipped with a hammer that has a small face out of the top front, and that can hang up on the bolt carrier and cause a bad jam. Figure $15 for a new hammer from Brownells. One final thing that many people do is have the bolt "ramped" as the 9mm bolt can beat kinda hard on the hammer and pins. It is not necessary on a semi lower, the full autos are the ones that seem to get beat pretty hard as they fire so many rounds, but I perosnally figure "it can't hurt." LRM firearms does this service for $35.

    So as you can see, you will be looking at an investment of around $600 either way. The ultra plug-and-play system seems to be the Olympic upper, although the Rock River Arms is really nice if you already have an Uzi and Uzi mags (like I do).

    Q: "What types of magzine blocks are available, I hear all sorts of names. Which blocks work with Which system? Which require modified magazines?"

    A: "Here you go, broken down by whch system uses them."

    Colt pattern mag blocks

    Colt Mag Block
    -Usually pinned into a Colt lower, but can sometimes be found on the Equipment Exchange
    -Bottom loader
    -Uses setscrew (and pinnning in many instances) to secure
    -Has bolt hold-open feature

    "Old" Rock River Arms mag block
    Copy of Colt Mag Block above

    "New" Rock River Arms mag block
    -Bottom Loader
    -Uses set screw to secure
    -No bolt hold-open feature
    -Replaced "Old" Rock River Mag block around January 2005. Several RRA vendors have told people it is not worth the money ($150).

    American Spirit Arms Block
    -Top Loader model
    -No bolt hold-open feature
    *Note- apparently there are two versions, one designed for ribbed-back Uzi mags and one that is designed for the plasma tube welded Uzi mags with no back rib.

    V M Hy Tech
    Attn: John Cencioso
    2701 W. Grovers
    Phoenix, AZ 85053
    -Block uses unmodified Uzi magazines ($149 March 2004)
    -does not actuate bolt hold-open
    -Early version had a flat button and mags could disengage when yanked hard and mags were tight, Revised block now has raised button w/concentric rings and slightly larger magwell dimensions.

    Garrison Manufacturing Inc.
    P.O. Box 231
    Wauseon, OH 43567
    [email protected]
    -Block uses modified Uzi magazines
    -Unslotted version does not actuate bolt hold open ($125 in March 2004)
    -Slotted version actuates bolt hold-open with replacement 9mm bolt catch. Use of this catch means the lower can not use 5.56 mags. (block $135, 9mm catch $15 March 2004)

    JRW Sports
    142 E. Floyd Ave
    Lake Mary, FL 32707
    (407) 328-7836
    -Block uses Uzi magazines with a mag catch notch cut in them (block apparently discontinued June 2003, price approx. $125 if you can find them)
    -Bottom loader set screw design
    -Actuates bolt hold-open w/Colt mags

    Crossfire Block
    -Out of production
    -Bottom loader set screw(?) design
    -Actuates bolt hold-open w/Colt mags
    -Description provided by "SOGwarrior" on his Corssfire block:

    The CrossFire 9mm magwell conversion block is ALL steel and it is placed into the magwell through the bottom upwards. A ball detent on the front of the block has tension that holds it into place in the magwell. It also has an area on the side of the block where the magazine release fits into and holds it into place. When you release the magazine release button, it allows the magazine to drop free but still holds the block into place. The feed ramp allows just about any size of 9mm to be used and it is a part of the block. Is the feed ramp welded or machined to the block itself, I'm not sure since I don't have the block in front of me to look at. I've never had a round jam or FTF due to the the feed ramp. The ejector is held in the block by a pin I believe, so it can be replaced if need be. My ejector rides "nearly" side by side with my bolt without actually touching the bolt, and this has given me NEAR flawless performance at ejecting cases. This is critical and on some setups may need to be tweaked. One of the best features on the CrossFire is holding the bolt open on the last round fired WHEN using Colt mags. It really improves your ability to perform better at subgun shoots with this feature. The only problems I've ever really had was due to bad or damaged ammo but that is no fault of the CrossFire block. I hope this helps

    -Copy of Crossfire block
    -Out of production
    -Bottom loader set screw(?) design
    -Actuates bolt hold-open w/Colt mags

    Hahn Precision Block
    -Top loader model w/no setscrews, does not actuate bolt
    -Bottom loader model that uses a spring loaded detent (supposedly some models have a set screw) and actuates bolt hold-open on Colt mags
    -Top loader $175, bottom loader $200 at Brownells March 2004.
    -Instructions on modifying a JRW block to accept Sten Mags

    Olympic Arms system blocks

    SOCOM Manufacturing
    -Block allows the use of unmodified Sten mags. (Price $65 + $7 S&H as of June 2003)

    Kurts Kustom Firearms Block
    -Similar to SOCOM block, but much smaller profile.

    Olympic Arms modified magazines-
    -magazines have a block welded to them and no adapter is requred. Have a funky "L" shape look to them.
    -Were also manufactured by Dalphon, which went out of business Jan. 2004.

    Lowers not requiring adapters

    Cavalry Arms lower
    -prototype "MKII" lower has a cruciform look to magwell cutout. Magwell is wide enough in middle to accomodate a Thompson magazine.
    -Rumor has it several companies are looking at designing .45 ACP uppers to use this lower, but none available as of March 2004.

    This is so I don't lose this info later...

    Weblinks on Colt/RRA 9mm upper, parts, etc.
    best prices on most Rock River Arms 9mm parts and uppers
    Colt type 9mm uppers, parts, and their own magwell blocks
    Magazine notching to make Uzi mags work in various mag blocks, bolt ramping, etc.
    Good FAQ on the different types of Uzi mags available and their relative merits and weaknesses
    Cheapest source of Uzi mags I have found- $99 for 10 used 25 round IMI mags, $1 ea for handpick. Got mine back in Dec 2003, rumor has it they are out right now. That special was not listed on their website, you have to call.
    Another excellent source of Uzi mags, but website is not always up to date. Call for specials.

    Data on 9mm Colt style systems

    Colt/RRA bolts come in "full auto" config, although a very few "semi" style colt bolts were made. Both work fine for semi.

    An unmodified bolt can use either a 9mm style hammer, an M16 hammer with the back end cut off (so as not to be illegal per NFA), or a DPMS style 5.56 hammer (which does not have the small rectangular notch on the front top face). The standard 5.56 AR-15 hammer with the small notch on the fron top face will bind the bolt *badly* on the first shot!

    The DPMS/M16 (modified) hammer may suffer trigger slap with a 9mm upper, but will function.

    A 5.56 upper will not function with a 9mm hammer in the lower

    A ramped bolt will work with all AR-15 and M16 hammers (modify M16 hammer to be NFA compliant!). It may not function with a 9mm hammer, results have varied and seem to depend on tolerances between bolt/upper/lower.

    Hollow point rounds may not feed reliably initially and mag blocks may need to be "throated" to help the feeding.

    Ramping a Colt style 9mm Bolt: Why??

    Although a Colt/Rock River 9mm upper will work with most hammers, it really was intended to be used with the Rock River 9mm hammer. The hammers are reset in only 1/2" of bolt travel, which puts a considerable stress on both the hammer and the hammer pins. Although it will not ruin a gun immediately, on a long enough time scale, espeically on full auto guns, this constant beating can wear on the lower and in some instances will "egg out" the hammer in holes. The easy solution to this is to "ramp" the bolt, where the ramped area is increased in length (a shallower slope) thus increasing the reset distance to about 1 1/4" or so, and more than doubling the reset time of the hammer, thus lowering the impact forces on the lower, pins, etc.

    The following picture shows an unramped bolt carrier on top and a ramped bolt carrierat the bottom. Note that the top bolt is actaully an M16 cariier, but the unramped porition is identical to that of an unramped 9mm bolt. The ramped area is just under the firing pin and is the shiny/scratched area on the lower bolt carrier in the picture. Note that most times when this area is ramped it is left "in the white" and not reparkerized. See the ahmmer picture at the bottom of this post to better understand what has been "ramped" on the bolt:


    Muzzle Threading:

    Muzzle is threaded 1/2x36 threads per inch on 9mm barrels (at RRA/Colt factory) as opposed to the 1/2x28 tpi use on 5.56

    Olympic will thread 9mm only in 5/8x24 by default or 1/2x28 when asked. Other pistol caliber barrels are threaded 5/8x24. (Per Mark Budam at Triple Break Products)

    Barrel Sizes:

    9mm postban RRA barrels measure .718" diameter at muzzle, .750" at front sight, and .675" under handguard.

    Which hammer do I have, and will it work in my 9mm upper?

    There are FOUR (4) types of hammers in use.

    1. M16 hammer.
    Description: It has a "hook" on the back edge which allows for full auto with the proper parts.
    WARNING: These are Illegal to posses in their orignal form per NFA unless installed in a registered class III weapon!
    Works in:
    M16: Yes
    AR-15: Yes, but only with spur removed
    Colt Style 9mm: Yes, but only with spur removed
    Colt Style 9mm w/Ramped Bolt: Yes
    Olympic Arms Pistol upper: Yes, but only with spur removed

    2. 9mm Hammer.
    Description: Basically a "stub"
    Works in:
    M16: Unkown
    AR-15: Yes, according to one team member
    Colt Style 9mm: Yes
    Colt Style 9mm w/Ramped Bolt: Maybe, seems to depend on tolerances of mag block/upper/lower
    Olympic Arms Pistol upper: No

    3. AR-15 "DPMS" Style hammer
    Description: Similar to M16 hammer but with no spur/hook on the back
    M16: Yes(?)
    AR-15: Yes
    Colt Style 9mm: Yes, may experience "trigger slap"
    Colt Style 9mm w/Ramped Bolt: Yes
    Olympic Arms Pistol upper: Yes

    4. AR-15 ("Rock River") Style hammer
    Description: Similar to M16 hammer but with no spur/hook on back and a notch at the top front face
    M16: Yes(?)
    AR-15: Yes
    Colt Style 9mm: No. WARNING- this will most likely BADLY jam hammer against bolt on first shot and not only jam weapon, but make removal of upper from lower extremely difficult!
    Colt Style 9mm w/Ramped Bolt: Yes
    Olympic Arms Pistol upper: Yes

    The following picture shows from left toe right an M-16 hammer with the "rat tail" removed, a "DPMS" style AR-15 hammer (also referred to as a "Sporter Hammer" by some people" and a "Rock River" style AR-15 hammer on the right, which is the most common type of AR-15 hammer. A 9mm bolt/carrier (is shown above, and note the ramping on the underside- the gradual slope of whcih can easily be seen.

  6. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Aug 30, 2003
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    Well the first thing I'd ask, is why? To a great extend you're getting all the power of a handgun with all the bulk of a rifle. In all seriousness the pointability if of course very nice, but I'd sure rather have a rifle caliber weapon than a handgun with a stock. Consider if its something that will actually serve a purpose for you.

    That said I have the keltec sub2000. The first one was defective (welcome to the keltec owners club). True to form keltec took care of me and it runs for the most part. It doesn't seem to love 147gr rounds, but thats not a big deal for most people. It is always teetering on the chopping block for me.
  7. spankaveli

    spankaveli Well-Known Member

    Jul 23, 2002
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    LA. State, not City.
    if you want something cheap to shoot, why not just get a .22 conversion for your ar?
  8. silversilvia

    silversilvia Active Member

    Sep 28, 2003
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    already got that. There is no real good reason, and i don't really need a rifle in 9mm. I just started a new job, got a fat pay check and want to spend it on something.

    is there ever a good reason to get a gun tho?
  9. GPK

    GPK Groovy OT Supporter

    Apr 18, 2007
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    Tons of good reasons.
  10. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

    Feb 25, 2006
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    N37°18'37" W120°29'50"

    but I think he meant NOT a good reason :rofl: in which case the answer is only if you need to save money for a) a bigger gun, or b) transport to the range.

    as for the rifle, how much you willing to spend, and where do you live? Cause if you have the money to blow, why not get a HK-94 SBR?

    IHAVECRABS Diversity is our strength. LOLOL

    Aug 7, 2006
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    Country state of mind, MD
    i :love: my cx4 9mm
  12. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

    May 16, 2001
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    I love my SUB2000. It's easy to shoot, easy to store, cheap as hell, almost certain to be banned next time around, eats anything I've fed it. (Even Blazer. Whoops. :noes:)
  13. what states in usa can you own a submachine gun?
  14. silversilvia

    silversilvia Active Member

    Sep 28, 2003
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    i didn't say submachine gun.

    but to answer your question probably many states with the proper paper work.

    anyways I went to one store they wanted 800 for a cx4. so i called another and they said their's was $650. so i think i might go with that,

    I was considering an AR upper. but for around the same price i can get a complete rifle. plus its shorter/lighter. i still might get an 9mm upper one day tho.

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