Buzz Killington

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Today is arm day. Another day of arms not growing :wtc:
After years of absolute idiocy I am now starting to pay attention to the science (or least half-absorbing what people who follow the science recommend) and have slashed my volume immensely. Now I might do only two bicep exercises at a time in the 5-8 rep range for each set. A allow myself slightly more volume on tris only because they grow more for me.
 
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fatmoocow

bored
OT Supporter
Aug 27, 2002
23,404
the intarweb
it's a shitty angle but you can literally see her left elbow pointing at the ground

gunna bet her right elbow is externally rotated creating the unbalance and the helicoptering
The asymmetry doesn't originate at the elbow. If you want to get deep, it originates in the central nervous system or if you want a simpler version, the psoas.

Psoas pulls asymmetrically on the hips, weight goes to right leg. Imagine taking a step with the left leg. That's the position.
Shift in the hips rotates the lower spine to the right
chest/right shoulder rotates to the left to compensate for lower spine rotation
What you see at the top is that push from the right arm and the upper torso rotating to the left.
There's then all kinds of shit going on because of the rotation of the spine in two directions, which changes the mobility of the shoulder, hips, neck, ribs, etc.

This is probably compounded by greater strength on the right side because we live in this position.

The problem is proximal, so you have to address the proximal position. You can't fix it by making distal changes unless you have an actual distal tissue problem like an elbow injury.
 

kenmei

Squatty Potty
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Mar 10, 2003
169,766
Bay Area, CA
The asymmetry doesn't originate at the elbow. If you want to get deep, it originates in the central nervous system or if you want a simpler version, the psoas.

Psoas pulls asymmetrically on the hips, weight goes to right leg. Imagine taking a step with the left leg. That's the position.
Shift in the hips rotates the lower spine to the right
chest/right shoulder rotates to the left to compensate for lower spine rotation
What you see at the top is that push from the right arm and the upper torso rotating to the left.
There's then all kinds of shit going on because of the rotation of the spine in two directions, which changes the mobility of the shoulder, hips, neck, ribs, etc.

This is probably compounded by greater strength on the right side because we live in this position.

The problem is proximal, so you have to address the proximal position. You can't fix it by making distal changes unless you have an actual distal tissue problem like an elbow injury.




you're diagnosing a lot from a picture at a weird angle, which sure could be true. I'd like to see her face on view with a pvc in a catch position to prove your theory of asymmetry. being in this sport since 2015 and seeing many helicopter catches, this is common due to incorrect form as addressed previously by the 2012 silver medalists explanation of the catch and in this video in particular
 

Neo22

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2003
4,850
The land of confusion
pls share your opinion and experience then
I've been training under Chad Vaughn for close to 2 years. I've transitioned from 20 years of bodybuilding to oly lifting. I've cleaned and jerked 335, snatched 295. Don't know many that have transitioned. Yes I do understand my numbers are not what u see at the Olympics but for someone with as little experience as me im doing good. The helicoptering comes down to hip and shoulder stability. Need more glute medius and scap stability work.
 

kenmei

Squatty Potty
OT Supporter
Mar 10, 2003
169,766
Bay Area, CA
I've been training under Chad Vaughn for close to 2 years. I've transitioned from 20 years of bodybuilding to oly lifting. I've cleaned and jerked 335, snatched 295. Don't know many that have transitioned. Yes I do understand my numbers are not what u see at the Olympics but for someone with as little experience as me im doing good. The helicoptering comes down to hip and shoulder stability. Need more glute medius and scap stability work.
why you lifting in lbs bro? :mamoru2: those are damn good #'s. You typically see CFers go to Oly or Powerlifters.. not too many BB

hips aren't something I considered but you both make good points. the rest is what I was getting at, so I was a bit taken back by you blowing everything off?

I lifted at Catalyst under Greg before they moved, and prior to that with Cal Strength
 
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fatmoocow

bored
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Aug 27, 2002
23,404
the intarweb



you're diagnosing a lot from a picture at a weird angle, which sure could be true. I'd like to see her face on view with a pvc in a catch position to prove your theory of asymmetry. being in this sport since 2015 and seeing many helicopter catches, this is common due to incorrect form as addressed previously by the 2012 silver medalists explanation of the catch and in this video in particular


I'm going to go ahead and appologize in advance for the autism canon I'm about to fire, but...

I'm not diagnosing based on the picture. Everyone has this asymmetry and people usually fall into a relatively small number of compensation patterns. This is straight PRI which is based on 11ty years of research on how people move.

Shoulder mobility is driven by spine and shoulder position. Rotation in the spine alters the position of the rib cage and it's mobility. The position of the rib cage alters the mobility of each shoulder.

Your "incorrect form" you see in the shoulder and elbow is just normal rotation of the spine and it's accompanying changes in shoulder mobility.


I'm pretty rusty at my PRI knowledge, but spent plenty of time with world class o-lifting coaches. Hell I've coached a legit olifting coach or two, because even the experts do really dumb shit. I've never met a group of people who love to crank on shoulders unnecessarily than o-lifting coaches.

You can definitely make changes by giving a shoulder based instruction, altering position of the shoulder, or tearing up tissue, but usually you're just adding a further compensation.

Instead if you can coach someone into a more neutral position, get their rib cage back to planet earth, you can get appropriate shoulder rotation. Addressing proximal causes before distal is movement 101. You automatically get free shoulder mobility without changing anything in the shoulder by simply changing the position of the ribs.


O-lifting is in general a poor exercise choice, particularly in this example. You're adding speed and dynamic movement to a complex compound exercise that requires a high degree of skill. Most people are incapable of performing basic movements non-explosively often in semi-supported positions.

I'd guess this girl can't squat without rotating away from her left leg. If she can't do that, she shouldn't be doing it explosively. So you'd go all the way back down the progression until she's able to do it cleanly. Then you train the shit out of that left adductor, external obliques, and so on...on the ground in a stable position and then work up with less and less stability.

This is the real issue though. She probably isn't ready to olift. All the corrections that need to be made should have been made during the build up to easier exercises which she probably isn't ready for yet.

And all of this is for what? You aren't going to get hypertrophy raping your CNS. You can't max out because form has to be maintained, so again, no hypertrophy. You can't do it for long periods of time, so it's not ideal for cardio or fat loss. You could train for explosive power...in a weak woman who isn't strong and isn't a wide receiver in the NFL. If she was an elite athlete in the NFL, she would need explosive power, but you're more likely to get injuries olifting vs just doing box jumps or similar, so it's not worth the risk to a valuable athlete. My NBA guys don't really even deadlift.


So in summary, get her control over the hips, left adductor, right glute, obliques, do PRI.
 

$ean

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
3,009
I'm going to go ahead and appologize in advance for the autism canon I'm about to fire, but...

I'm not diagnosing based on the picture. Everyone has this asymmetry and people usually fall into a relatively small number of compensation patterns. This is straight PRI which is based on 11ty years of research on how people move.

Shoulder mobility is driven by spine and shoulder position. Rotation in the spine alters the position of the rib cage and it's mobility. The position of the rib cage alters the mobility of each shoulder.

Your "incorrect form" you see in the shoulder and elbow is just normal rotation of the spine and it's accompanying changes in shoulder mobility.


I'm pretty rusty at my PRI knowledge, but spent plenty of time with world class o-lifting coaches. Hell I've coached a legit olifting coach or two, because even the experts do really dumb shit. I've never met a group of people who love to crank on shoulders unnecessarily than o-lifting coaches.

You can definitely make changes by giving a shoulder based instruction, altering position of the shoulder, or tearing up tissue, but usually you're just adding a further compensation.

Instead if you can coach someone into a more neutral position, get their rib cage back to planet earth, you can get appropriate shoulder rotation. Addressing proximal causes before distal is movement 101. You automatically get free shoulder mobility without changing anything in the shoulder by simply changing the position of the ribs.


O-lifting is in general a poor exercise choice, particularly in this example. You're adding speed and dynamic movement to a complex compound exercise that requires a high degree of skill. Most people are incapable of performing basic movements non-explosively often in semi-supported positions.

I'd guess this girl can't squat without rotating away from her left leg. If she can't do that, she shouldn't be doing it explosively. So you'd go all the way back down the progression until she's able to do it cleanly. Then you train the shit out of that left adductor, external obliques, and so on...on the ground in a stable position and then work up with less and less stability.

This is the real issue though. She probably isn't ready to olift. All the corrections that need to be made should have been made during the build up to easier exercises which she probably isn't ready for yet.

And all of this is for what? You aren't going to get hypertrophy raping your CNS. You can't max out because form has to be maintained, so again, no hypertrophy. You can't do it for long periods of time, so it's not ideal for cardio or fat loss. You could train for explosive power...in a weak woman who isn't strong and isn't a wide receiver in the NFL. If she was an elite athlete in the NFL, she would need explosive power, but you're more likely to get injuries olifting vs just doing box jumps or similar, so it's not worth the risk to a valuable athlete. My NBA guys don't really even deadlift.


So in summary, get her control over the hips, left adductor, right glute, obliques, do PRI.
I'm a huge PRI fan but there is no reputable coach on the planet that would speculate, diagnose and prescribe like you are doing here without an evaluation.
 

fatmoocow

bored
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Aug 27, 2002
23,404
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I'm a huge PRI fan but there is no reputable coach on the planet that would speculate, diagnose and prescribe like you are doing here without an evaluation.
Ya most PTs in the olifting world would do a thorough assessment and then prescribe absolute bullshit that is likely to do as much damage as good. Stretching that doesn’t do anything at best, at worst damages hip capsules and shoulders.

Meanwhile 99% of the population will benefit from left adductor and right glute, most olifters will instantly get more rom coaching them on rib position…and I’ve suggested multiple times seeing someone who actually does PRI.

Further it doesn’t take a genius to know that 99.9% of middle aged females aren’t prepared for explosive full body movements. Most of them can’t do a clean plank with 4 points of contact with the ground.
 

$ean

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
3,009
Ya most PTs in the olifting world would do a thorough assessment and then prescribe absolute bullshit that is likely to do as much damage as good. Stretching that doesn’t do anything at best, at worst damages hip capsules and shoulders.

Meanwhile 99% of the population will benefit from left adductor and right glute, most olifters will instantly get more rom coaching them on rib position…and I’ve suggested multiple times seeing someone who actually does PRI.

Further it doesn’t take a genius to know that 99.9% of middle aged females aren’t prepared for explosive full body movements. Most of them can’t do a clean plank with 4 points of contact with the ground.
I've worked with many reputable DPT's in the weightlifting world that subscribe to PRI methodology (I myself am a fan), but it's just a tool in the tool box. It's not the end-all-be-all that most PRI elitists' pretend it is. But sure, keep speaking in absolutes-
 
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fatmoocow

bored
OT Supporter
Aug 27, 2002
23,404
the intarweb
I've worked with many reputable DPT's in the weightlifting world that subscribe to PRI methodology (I myself am a fan), but it's just a tool in the tool box. It's not the end-all-be-all that most PRI elitists' pretend it is. But sure, keep speaking in absolutes-

Which recommendation is it that you disagree with or are questioning exactly?
 

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