SRS Putin declares war in Ukraine, surprising no one

Simius The Monkey

Long Live The Republic
OT Supporter
Sep 7, 2005
61,001
Minnesota
I know we are helping UA as we probably should, but can you blame Russia for now calling it a proxy war with all the media constantly bragging about “American donated equipment, paid for by American tax dollars, approved by American congress, send tO UA to defeat Russian, while training UA on the American Equipment, targeting RU with US intelligence”
Double quoting because double mad:

(Just kidding, I just didn't want to bother finding a more relevant post of yours. This reply is directed at your entire conversation)

I know it has been stated. And I know you aren't trying to make this implication... But the reason people are resistant to calling it a proxy war is because calling it a proxy war has been Russian propaganda to justify their invasion as being in self defense. A number of articles of non Russian propagandists have also used it as a starting point for saying, really, this war was caused by NATO and they are too blame. (sure. Russia has some blame too let me pretend to admonish them real quick, but this is the US's fault and we shouldn't be causing this war to continue because reasons. Let's be the good guys by abandoning Ukraine!). So... Even acknowledging it is a proxy war opens the door to that dreck. Fuck that. If you (not you, the people doing that) are going to be so dishonest as to make that argument I'll just dismiss the premise from the start. Dishonest of me? Fuck you (not you), that's why.

But the main reason I resist calling it a proxy war is because it isn't a conflict that NATO had pressured Ukraine into fighting where they wouldn't have of their own accord. It makes it a conflict that Ukraine wouldn't have fought except for NATO interference. It diminishes the agency of Ukraine. It is clear they would have fought back regardless of NATO. They should get credit for that. Regardless of if they would have lost had NATO etal ignored what was happening and chose not to reluctantly help.
 

mistergin

Probably not your father...
May 12, 2001
3,777
Southeast Valley


fwm-fuck.gif


1652473288937.jpeg
 

Simius The Monkey

Long Live The Republic
OT Supporter
Sep 7, 2005
61,001
Minnesota
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Miesha Taint

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2006
46,372
Cool.

I think we are past bowing down due to that threat.
It's not a matter of bowing down but it should be taken into account with calls for regime change, demilitarization, and/or dissolving the Russian Federation into separate territories becoming increasingly popular.
 

Simius The Monkey

Long Live The Republic
OT Supporter
Sep 7, 2005
61,001
Minnesota
A proxy war implies we started it imo.
According to some of these fucks we did start it... By existing.

But seriously, they start out with calling it a proxy war because we aren't directly involved but are helping one side. Then basically shift to your usage to assign blame on NATO etal for the conflict. Dishonest pieces of trash. The whole lot of them.
 
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Simius The Monkey

Long Live The Republic
OT Supporter
Sep 7, 2005
61,001
Minnesota
It's not a matter of bowing down but it should be taken into account with calls for regime change, demilitarization, and/or dissolving the Russian Federation into separate territories becoming increasingly popular.
If Russia is going to belligerently and incompetently start wars of aggression with their military they should be demilitarized. I guess we'll have to settle with doing it one St. Jav at a time until they stop attacking a nation just because they think they are stronger than them militarily. So... Good.
 
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EMML

Member
Oct 5, 2021
52
We promised to do this very thing when Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.




"Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world.

Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.

In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.

Now, that agreement is front and center again.

Mariana Budjeryn of Harvard University spoke with All Things Considered about the legacy of the Budapest Memorandum and its impact today.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Interview highlights
On whether Ukraine foresaw the impact of denuclearizing

It is hard to estimate whether Ukrainians would foresee the impact.

It is clear that Ukrainians knew they weren't getting the exactly legally binding, really robust security guarantees they sought.

But they were told at the time that the United States and Western powers — so certainly at least the United States and Great Britain — take their political commitments really seriously. This is a document signed at the highest level by the heads of state. So the implication was Ukraine would not be left to stand alone and face a threat should it come under one."
 

whatever

OT Supporter
Feb 18, 2004
214,880
We promised to do this very thing when Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.




"Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world.

Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.

In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.

Now, that agreement is front and center again.

Mariana Budjeryn of Harvard University spoke with All Things Considered about the legacy of the Budapest Memorandum and its impact today.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Interview highlights
On whether Ukraine foresaw the impact of denuclearizing

It is hard to estimate whether Ukrainians would foresee the impact.

It is clear that Ukrainians knew they weren't getting the exactly legally binding, really robust security guarantees they sought.

But they were told at the time that the United States and Western powers — so certainly at least the United States and Great Britain — take their political commitments really seriously. This is a document signed at the highest level by the heads of state. So the implication was Ukraine would not be left to stand alone and face a threat should it come under one."

Yea we are skirting our responsibilities there imo.
 

Simius The Monkey

Long Live The Republic
OT Supporter
Sep 7, 2005
61,001
Minnesota
I'm wondering if, at the time, we might have thought a "democratic" Russia wouldn't be asshole
There was a lot of hope of that, I think. But I was just a tot so I may be remembering wrong.

I do recall people commenting (not entirely seriously, but kinda seriously) about how Germany was going to start another world war now that it had reunited. Boy did we get that wrong. (Happily)
 

Dusty Busterson

OT Supporter
Sep 19, 2007
15,075
Las Vegas
I'm wondering if, at the time, we might have thought a "democratic" Russia wouldn't be asshole
Yeah there was a bit in the 90’s when it seemed like Russia might join us in the modern, relatively peaceful world.

I’m just old enough to remember the tail end of it (1995-97 or so) when it seemed like the internet might actually bring everyone together and we could work on fixing our planet, and maybe actual world peace.

Then 9/11 happened.
 
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