Who is OT's resident rental property mortgage expert and/or real estate investment oriented CPA

[Redsand187]

Been spying on some multi-unit rental properties that seem to offer awesome cashflow and in an area that will be gentrified in the next 5 years.

I'm wondering about how financing actually works on these types of deals. I constantly hear and see parroted 20-25% down payment minimum is required to buy an investment property. However, when it really breaks down, it seems like that is for buying a second single-family residence and renting it out.

Say, for example, a 10 unit property cost $1,000,000 and had a gross profit of $80,000 annually, would that have an effect on the required down payment or loan terms vs if the property had a gross profit of $50,000 annually?

Also, I imagine the down payment can be offset by LTV as with conventional mortgages. Say the purchase price of that same property, appraised at $1,000,000, was actually $850,000. Is it correct to assume that the lender would not expect a 25% down payment of $212,500 in cash, but rather $100,000?

Finally, how is credit handled? Say I established an LLC with my sister, we put the required cash in for the downpayment, plus operating reserves, would we personally need to guarantee the loan in any way or could it be standalone in the LLC name only?

When I run the numbers, the greatest ROI is with the least amount of capital outlay obviously and reduces personal risk. I would also like to preserve as much cash as possible to put into updating units as the neighborhood is redeveloped.

 

[T_Dawgg]

I suggest you pray on this and let the lord guide you my friend

 

[Xicculus]

Been spying on some multi-unit rental properties that seem to offer awesome cashflow and in an area that will be gentrified in the next 5 years.

I'm wondering about how financing actually works on these types of deals. I constantly hear and see parroted 20-25% down payment minimum is required to buy an investment property. However, when it really breaks down, it seems like that is for buying a second single-family residence and renting it out.

Say, for example, a 10 unit property cost $1,000,000 and had a gross profit of $80,000 annually, would that have an effect on the required down payment or loan terms vs if the property had a gross profit of $50,000 annually? NO

Also, I imagine the down payment can be offset by LTV as with conventional mortgages. Say the purchase price of that same property, appraised at $1,000,000, was actually $850,000. Is it correct to assume that the lender would not expect a 25% down payment of $212,500 in cash, but rather $100,000? DEPENDS ON THE LENDER. AGENCIES ARE MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN COMMUNITG BANK LENDERS

Finally, how is credit handled? Say I established an LLC with my sister, we put the required cash in for the downpayment, plus operating reserves, would we personally need to guarantee the loan in any way or could it be standalone in the LLC name only? DEPENDS ON THE LENDER AND ON THE LTV. GO 55% LTV OR LOWER AND YOU CAN OFTEN GET NON RECOURSE FINANCING.

When I run the numbers, the greatest ROI is with the least amount of capital outlay obviously and reduces personal risk. I would also like to preserve as much cash as possible to put into updating units as the neighborhood is redeveloped. IF ITS A VALUE ADD PLAY, MOST LENDERS REQUIEE UPFRONT RESERVES TO PROVE YOU HAVE THE MONEY TO BOTH PAY DOWN THE DEBT AND TO IMPROVE THE UNITS

Sorry for the capital letter responses. My answers come from my many years in the industry. A lot of lending is location and property level specific.

 

[Mejnoon]

Been spying on some multi-unit rental properties that seem to offer awesome cashflow and in an area that will be gentrified in the next 5 years.

I'm wondering about how financing actually works on these types of deals. I constantly hear and see parroted 20-25% down payment minimum is required to buy an investment property. However, when it really breaks down, it seems like that is for buying a second single-family residence and renting it out.

Say, for example, a 10 unit property cost $1,000,000 and had a gross profit of $80,000 annually, would that have an effect on the required down payment or loan terms vs if the property had a gross profit of $50,000 annually?

Also, I imagine the down payment can be offset by LTV as with conventional mortgages. Say the purchase price of that same property, appraised at $1,000,000, was actually $850,000. Is it correct to assume that the lender would not expect a 25% down payment of $212,500 in cash, but rather $100,000?

Finally, how is credit handled? Say I established an LLC with my sister, we put the required cash in for the downpayment, plus operating reserves, would we personally need to guarantee the loan in any way or could it be standalone in the LLC name only?

When I run the numbers, the greatest ROI is with the least amount of capital outlay obviously and reduces personal risk. I would also like to preserve as much cash as possible to put into updating units as the neighborhood is redeveloped.

The answers above are good except I’m not sure why he answered “no” to your question about cash flow impacting LTV or terms, it definitely will

 

[UndefinedMinded]

 

[Redsand187]

No, no, yes, duh (leverage typically boosts cash flow).

A local bank (as opposed to a national bank like Chase, for example) will allow for more flexible terms. You can cross assets in lieu of down.

Also, an 8% gross rerun isn’t attractive (if your example proves more realistic).

$80,000 NOI would be more appropriate term and conservative in this case.

6-8% cap rate is the norm here, anything higher is major slumlord territory which I doubt would ever actually be realized due to deadbeats.

My calculations seem to put it in the 150-180% debt service.




The property I'm looking at is 2 blocks from a hospital that went bankrupt and shutdown. A local commercial developer just bought the property, they plan on having medical offices open by early 2022, and a new hospital operator 2022-2023. I would suspect they will put an additional $10mm into developing the medical and commercial in the immediate area. Due to the region being semi-rural, there are many contract RN's and starting MD's that come in from outside of the area. There aren't a lot of multi-families in the neighborhood, the area was originally built in the 60's. Offering updated units 2 blocks away from this "new" medical complex that will be employing ~1000, most who will be making double the median household income for the area seems like a solid investment.

Current leases are ~15% below market average, 100% occupancy. I'd plan $20,000ish per unit (all 1bd 1ba) in renovations on lease turnover with the goal of rent being ~25% higher than the market average by 2022-2023. This why I'd like to have as little cash as possible laid out on the purchase so I have $200,000+ in reserves to renovate on demand. Exit or refinance in 7-10 years.

 

[Xicculus]

Terms, yes; but typically the security the bank needs is derived exclusively from the down payment.

Edit* I’m maybe misunderstanding your point. A max LTV can’t be breached but a bank may prefer a lower LTV is you’re looking at weaker cash flow. Typically, I’m seeing that banks want a 120% of debt service.

A 1.2x DSCR sounds very low
Lenders generally want to see a 7.5% debt yield, which means they’ll get that return if they have to take back the property. Loan amount divided by NOI = debt yield. Having said that, I only deal with institutional properties so maybe the terms are different on mom and pop deals. Institutional properties trade at 4 caps in today’s low interest environment.

 

[Mejnoon]

$80,000 NOI would be more appropriate term and conservative in this case.

6-8% cap rate is the norm here, anything higher is major slumlord territory which I doubt would ever actually be realized due to deadbeats.

My calculations seem to put it in the 150-180% debt service.




The property I'm looking at is 2 blocks from a hospital that went bankrupt and shutdown. A local commercial developer just bought the property, they plan on having medical offices open by early 2022, and a new hospital operator 2022-2023. I would suspect they will put an additional $10mm into developing the medical and commercial in the immediate area. Due to the region being semi-rural, there are many contract RN's and starting MD's that come in from outside of the area. There aren't a lot of multi-families in the neighborhood, the area was originally built in the 60's. Offering updated units 2 blocks away from this "new" medical complex that will be employing ~1000, most who will be making double the median household income for the area seems like a solid investment.

Current leases are ~15% below market average, 100% occupancy. I'd plan $20,000ish per unit (all 1bd 1ba) in renovations on lease turnover with the goal of rent being ~25% higher than the market average by 2022-2023. This why I'd like to have as little cash as possible laid out on the purchase so I have $200,000+ in reserves to renovate on demand. Exit or refinance in 7-10 years.

An in-place 8 cap on a value add apartment deal isn’t too bad right now in most parts of the country.

That sounds promising, but underwrite carefully. Pad your expenses and discount your income, and evaluate rent comps honestly. Find out why the seller is selling and why it hasn’t sold yet - solid apartment deals are going under contract in days in most places.

 

[Redsand187]

An in-place 8 cap on a value add apartment deal isn’t too bad right now in most parts of the country.

That sounds promising, but underwrite carefully. Pad your expenses and discount your income, and evaluate rent comps honestly. Find out why the seller is selling and why it hasn’t sold yet - solid apartment deals are going under contract in days in most places.

This market doesn't seem to have many big-time outside/corporate investors. The population has steadily outpaced new housing by a margin of 1%+ for well over a decade. Marketwide, vacancies are super low averaging around 3% annually.

The owner of the property... is a fucktard that I want to punch in the face.... or at least his wife who is the (residential)realtor is.
They live a couple of hours away and came in and bought about a dozen multi-families in 2016.
Now, they have most of them listed at pretty much double their purchase price and have continued to defer maintenance. (It is a C property that could be made into solid B) I would bet their loan is due now and they are trying to sell enough properties to pay the loan and keep whatever is left free and clear. I've been back and forth with this hoe for over a week just for the rent roll and still waiting. She has made no inquiries into me to even try to qualify me, let alone find out anything to write me off as a waste of time.

I can't get any real information out of the bitch. I suspect it is a retirement play as they are in their mid 60's and don't have a lot of other assets that I can find. (They seem like typical upper-middle class, not some rich moguls)

Due to the realtor's lack of providing any documentation, I really question if the numbers are what she claimed. Due to the appearance of poor management, it wouldn't surprise me if 15% below market rent is just for any recent leases and a 100% occupancy is with only like 75% of rent being actually collected monthly.

It brings up the question, should properties like this be priced on a GRM or by traditional valuation. And if using a GRM how the fuck is anyone supposed to do that in the current market? I mean, if you have great tenants that are all paying rent despite the moratorium, it's no big deal. But if a property has tenants that can't pay, can you really count what they owe as gross rent?

 

[Remy Bressant]

TS has a real attitude for someone who doesn’t know what cap rates are

 

[TimzSI]

Getting into rental properties at this time seems extremely risky.

 

[lawnboy]

Getting into rental properties at this time seems extremely risky.

Scared money don’t make money. Closed on 2 units over the past 3 months with deadbeats who hadn’t been paying for 6+ mos. offered cash for keys on both and they accepted. Even paid for a uhaul for one of them

 

[Redsand187]

TS has a real attitude for someone who doesn’t know what cap rates are

 

[TheBoyWonder]

@Delta00 knows Argus

 

[Redsand187]

Getting into rental properties at this time seems extremely risky.

My sister and I are receiving a decent-sized inheritance that neither of us really need or wanted, but our grandma insisted that she not spend all of her money so there would be money left for her family. We've always talked about rental properties but never got super serious. Minus whale gamble it on real estate. If we can do it without dipping into our own money and just use this free money, it's really no risk. If we don't lose it all, maybe we can buy a vacation house in Cabo in 10 years.

 

[fatmoocow]

Ignoring the hassle and cluster fuck of slum lording for a moment....go pro has a point. If you want to do wild bullshit, it's most easily done with random rich retards that want to be in real estate. Every one of your questions is the type of question that makes banks uninterested.

Go hang out at your local REI club. Talk to some dudes.

Also development projects get canceled constantly, particularly right now. I wouldn't bank my entire deal on the idea that all the white people will for sure move in and pay 30% more than retail...which is 20% more than what they're saying they get...which is 20% more than what they're actually getting.

 

[Mejnoon]

This market doesn't seem to have many big-time outside/corporate investors.

They’re around, but they generally use national/regional commercial brokers who typically don’t have MLS access to source deals. Search on loopnet (non-member search) and Crexi, if it isn’t advertised on either of those platforms there is a decent chance it’s flying under the radar.

The population has steadily outpaced new housing by a margin of 1%+ for well over a decade. Marketwide, vacancies are super low averaging around 3% annually.

The owner of the property... is a fucktard that I want to punch in the face.... or at least his wife who is the (residential)realtor is.
They live a couple of hours away and came in and bought about a dozen multi-families in 2016.
Now, they have most of them listed at pretty much double their purchase price and have continued to defer maintenance. (It is a C property that could be made into solid B) I would bet their loan is due now and they are trying to sell enough properties to pay the loan and keep whatever is left free and clear. I've been back and forth with this hoe for over a week just for the rent roll and still waiting. She has made no inquiries into me to even try to qualify me, let alone find out anything to write me off as a waste of time.

I can't get any real information out of the bitch. I suspect it is a retirement play as they are in their mid 60's and don't have a lot of other assets that I can find. (They seem like typical upper-middle class, not some rich moguls)

Due to the realtor's lack of providing any documentation, I really question if the numbers are what she claimed. Due to the appearance of poor management, it wouldn't surprise me if 15% below market rent is just for any recent leases and a 100% occupancy is with only like 75% of rent being actually collected monthly.

It brings up the question, should properties like this be priced on a GRM or by traditional valuation. And if using a GRM how the fuck is anyone supposed to do that in the current market? I mean, if you have great tenants that are all paying rent despite the moratorium, it's no big deal. But if a property has tenants that can't pay, can you really count what they owe as gross rent?

This is the type of situation that absolutely can result in you buying well, if you’re careful. Unsophisticated sellers who probably think they know everything.

You’re asking the right questions, and you’re probably right about the debt coming due which you can verify by pulling the recorded note. You definitely need a reliable, current rent roll to evaluate the deal and you’ll need it to obtain financing as well.

The reason a lot of apartment guys price on GRM rather than cap rate is because they know how to operate the property, they know exactly where their expenses should be - they don’t care about the seller’s expenses. In this case it absolutely makes sense to price that way because these absentee owners likely pared expenses down to the bare minimum.

Collections/pay history are absolutely a concern particularly now with eviction moratoriums in place in many localities and a national moratorium potentially coming.

Sounds like you’re going to have to make an offer to get her books and records, and they won’t be reliable - verify rental rates against local comps, and don’t just check online. Call nearby complexes and ask them about their upcoming availabilities.

The most important questions you need to answer:

1) What’s the actual, in-place gross potential income(GPI)? Not what the property could make if stabilized (that’s coming up), what you will realize based on current rental rates assuming 100% collection and including any non-rent revenue (laundry/parking/etc)

2) Calculate a realistic pro-forma GPI - what can the property generate in a year once stabilized at market rents?

3) Estimate expenses for a well operated property - evaluate what it will cost you to operate the property at the standard necessary to make your rent increases viable - the seller’s expenses are irrelevant.

4) Quantify the deferred maintenance/upcoming capital expenditures. This should be pretty self explanatory.

Keep in mind lenders hate shitty books, and these books will be shitty (if they exist at all). You may have to do some heavy lifting to produce the records your lender will ask for - I once had to write new leases for like 15 tenants in a shopping center owned by this crazy ass old Viet lady that had just done handshake deals for years

It might not be possible to verify actual collections, it’ll come down to how much the seller is willing to show you. Ask for their schedule E from their last tax return, or deposit receipts.

One last point - contractors are busy and costs are very high right now. When you estimate the cost of deferred maintenance/capex be careful, get real bids if possible and then pad them.

 

[Xicculus]

I follow. That does seem attractive. I personally hate rental property and I really hate dealing with Section 8 territory, but they typically offer the most consistent returns (unless you're at the other end of the spectrum) and the longest tenancies.

This would be something I'd buy, improve, and turn, especially if you can sell at a 5 or 6 cap.


Right. I’m on the opposite end.

Regional/community banking on deals in mid seven figure, rarely super low eight figure valuations.

I would assume (correct me if I’m wrong) that your baseline benchmark is CD’s so the investor pool is REIT’s or similar. That’s why caps are so low (because it’s tough to scale up on bigger plays). On my end, it’s smaller money, so an ETF or S&P long run average is the benchmark, thus requiring higher yields.

You're in the right range. It’s an interesting hybrid - institutional money investing for generational wealth building. Kind of like a really wealthy family office.

 

[stevezissou]

Been spying on some multi-unit rental properties that seem to offer awesome cashflow and in an area that will be gentrified in the next 5 years.

I'm wondering about how financing actually works on these types of deals. I constantly hear and see parroted 20-25% down payment minimum is required to buy an investment property. However, when it really breaks down, it seems like that is for buying a second single-family residence and renting it out.

Say, for example, a 10 unit property cost $1,000,000 and had a gross profit of $80,000 annually, would that have an effect on the required down payment or loan terms vs if the property had a gross profit of $50,000 annually?

Also, I imagine the down payment can be offset by LTV as with conventional mortgages. Say the purchase price of that same property, appraised at $1,000,000, was actually $850,000. Is it correct to assume that the lender would not expect a 25% down payment of $212,500 in cash, but rather $100,000?

Finally, how is credit handled? Say I established an LLC with my sister, we put the required cash in for the downpayment, plus operating reserves, would we personally need to guarantee the loan in any way or could it be standalone in the LLC name only?

When I run the numbers, the greatest ROI is with the least amount of capital outlay obviously and reduces personal risk. I would also like to preserve as much cash as possible to put into updating units as the neighborhood is redeveloped.

Yikes man you obviously haven't dealt with commercial loans as soon as you say "no personal guarantee" you will get laughed out of every bankers office.

How about try a smaller real estate deal, not everyone drops 7 figures on their first property while simultaneously not knowing what a cap rate is or how commercial loans work.

If some people in this thread including me are being hard on you there is a reason you have a lot to learn throwing 7 figures of cash + debt around could go south real quick.

Start small and talk to a local CPA/Real estate agent and go from there.

 

[Mejnoon]

One thing though, and @Mejnoon probably agrees: go under contract with a long feasibility/contingency period. It would suck to miss out on a good deal because the seller is being a moron and someone else has more appetite for risk.

Absolutely, he’s gotta have the time he needs to get that rent roll ironed out. Best way is just to do it from scratch, from the leases/rental agreements, but it’s possible the seller doesn’t even have those.

 

[Redsand187]

They’re around, but they generally use national/regional commercial brokers who typically don’t have MLS access to source deals. Search on loopnet (non-member search) and Crexi, if it isn’t advertised on either of those platforms there is a decent chance it’s flying under the radar.



This is the type of situation that absolutely can result in you buying well, if you’re careful. Unsophisticated sellers who probably think they know everything.

You’re asking the right questions, and you’re probably right about the debt coming due which you can verify by pulling the recorded note. You definitely need a reliable, current rent roll to evaluate the deal and you’ll need it to obtain financing as well.

The reason a lot of apartment guys price on GRM rather than cap rate is because they know how to operate the property, they know exactly where their expenses should be - they don’t care about the seller’s expenses. In this case it absolutely makes sense to price that way because these absentee owners likely pared expenses down to the bare minimum.

Collections/pay history are absolutely a concern particularly now with eviction moratoriums in place in many localities and a national moratorium potentially coming.

Sounds like you’re going to have to make an offer to get her books and records, and they won’t be reliable - verify rental rates against local comps, and don’t just check online. Call nearby complexes and ask them about their upcoming availabilities.

The most important questions you need to answer:

1) What’s the actual, in-place gross potential income(GPI)? Not what the property could make if stabilized (that’s coming up), what you will realize based on current rental rates assuming 100% collection and including any non-rent revenue (laundry/parking/etc)

2) Calculate a realistic pro-forma GPI - what can the property generate in a year once stabilized at market rents?

3) Estimate expenses for a well operated property - evaluate what it will cost you to operate the property at the standard necessary to make your rent increases viable - the seller’s expenses are irrelevant.

4) Quantify the deferred maintenance/upcoming capital expenditures. This should be pretty self explanatory.

Keep in mind lenders hate shitty books, and these books will be shitty (if they exist at all). You may have to do some heavy lifting to produce the records your lender will ask for - I once had to write new leases for like 15 tenants in a shopping center owned by this crazy ass old Viet lady that had just done handshake deals for years

It might not be possible to verify actual collections, it’ll come down to how much the seller is willing to show you. Ask for their schedule E from their last tax return, or deposit receipts.

One last point - contractors are busy and costs are very high right now. When you estimate the cost of deferred maintenance/capex be careful, get real bids if possible and then pad them.

This broad hasn't listed the properties on Loopnet or Crexi. Anytime I've researched multifamily properties sold by a commercial agent, they are always accompanied by a 10-50 page PDF with all the information you'd expect. She is having trouble producing rent roll.

GPI at current HUD FMR is ~$115,000. $125,000 at the market median. There is coin-op laundry, but I wouldn't expect it to do anything but breakeven. Renovations would include in-unit washer/dryer stack. Some additional income is available via pet rents. RUBS would bring $5000, making $130,000 GPI pretty likely by the end of 2021. After renovation, I'd expect GPI to be 160-175. There is also a good possibility of short-term furnished rental income for some units.

The good thing about maintenance/capital expenses is I have the ability to do a lot of the work myself and am GC with a fair amount of connections for labor at fair prices.









This mostly mental exercise, I'm not looking to make a move quickly. More like use this as a model to figure out the process, and if by the time I'm comfortable it's still available, then move. The property in this case would likely go for far less than a million. If it sold at the average of the last 5 similar sized properties sold per square foot, it should go for 775. From what I can see, those properties had a lot of documentation available upfront. They literally have it listed at double their 2016 purchase price exactly. I don't think they are motivated sellers.

Ideally, I'd have 250k skin in the game on the property but would like to be able to renovate all units in 3-4 years' time. So balancing cash upfront with cash reserves for renovations is what I'd need to figure out. As I said, this is basically free money, if it disappeared, I wouldn't cry. I would imagine this would be safer than betting it all on black and it gives me a bunch of stuff to think about at 3am when I can't sleep.

I'd rather come to OT and ask a bunch of assholes to tell me why I am dumb than go look like a moron in front of a real lender. That is what makes OT great these days, there is always a handful of people that are well experienced on just about anything you can think of. OT experts are a great way to cut straight to the chase.

 

[Redsand187]

Yikes man you obviously haven't dealt with commercial loans as soon as you say "no personal guarantee" you will get laughed out of every bankers office.

Asking because why not? Just wondering if an LLC came in with $250,000 cash on a $1,000,000 property that was able to more than service its debt if it's still necessary to personally guarantee it. We are liquid enough to cover the whole thing. But why attach yourself to it if you don't have to? Ask for the moon, settle for a star.

 

[stevezissou]

Asking because why not? Just wondering if an LLC came in with $250,000 cash on a $1,000,000 property that was able to more than service its debt if it's still necessary to personally guarantee it. We are liquid enough to cover the whole thing. But why attach yourself to it if you don't have to? Ask for the moon, settle for a star.

So 75% LTV and no personal guarantee? Guessing you are going to want a rock bottom interest rate as well as no prepayment penalty? lmao

The ONLY time I have seen no personal guarantee the LTV was MUCH lower than 75% and came with a prepayment penalty(for the life of the loan) and the interest rate sucked.

Good luck, please go talk to some commercial lenders about a 75% LTV and no personal guarantee let us know what they have to say.

 

[Redsand187]

So 75% LTV and no personal guarantee? Guessing you are going to want a rock bottom interest rate as well as no prepayment penalty? lmao

The ONLY time I have seen no personal guarantee the LTV was MUCH lower than 75% and came with a prepayment penalty(for the life of the loan) and the interest rate sucked.

Good luck, please go talk to some commercial lenders about a 75% LTV and no personal guarantee let us know what they have to say.

That is why I asked here. I figured it's a reach so I'd rather have an OTer tell me I'm dumb than someone I want to ask for money.

 

[JoJoFine]

I actually lend on multifamily properties exclusively for a living. Send me a PM if you want to talk specifics but in WA anything valued at a >6% cap rate either has something wrong with it or is a total shit hole. The NOI is going to impact your loan proceeds more than whatever loan to value is and I guarantee you that your underwritten NOI is going to be lower than you think it is due to your specific lender's vacancy factor adjustments, insurance requirements and tax underwriting policies.